Next Play Capital - Fellowship Program Class With Guest Speaker Don Muir
Next Play Capital is an investment platform structured to provide specialized investors access to venture capital through integrated exposure to venture funds, direct investments, and joint venture partnerships. In addition to its investors, venture partners and portfolio companies, its platform is also deeply rooted in current and former professional athletes, Olympians, influencers, and other thought leaders. The organization strives to connect all aspects of its community in all that it does to ultimately produce outsized returns for its investors and cross-pollinate the various aspects of its platform for the betterment of each individual or organization. The Next Play Capital Fellowship Program is an opprtunity for these former athletes to learn about and get exposure to the venture capital space.
In this session, Don Muir leads one of the fellowship program classes and provides an overview of arc, the future of startup finance. He covers the origin story of arc, he provides an update on the company’s traction since launch, and he highlights what makes arc’s offering unique in the banking sector. Don wraps up the session by answering questions from the audience.
Key Takeaways:
- Bringing in new investors, is like forming a life-long partnership. Get to know the individual on a personal level, and decide whether you want to be working alongside that individual for the next 3, 5, 10 years. They should be one of the people you want to stand next to as you're ringing the, the opening bell at nasdaq one day.
- The core function of a bank is cash management. They're storing cash and lending. We call that banking and capital. What we're doing is taking a traditional banking model. And we're rebuilding it. We're reimagining it from the ground up as a software business.
- What we try to do is just listen to our customers. We talk to our customers. We cut the data. We see where the customers are going. We talk to VCs and see how get unbiased feedback on how customers and prospects are responding to our brand. And and then we extract learnings and we change on a dime. If we hear something is Is not resonating with our target customer profile. We'll change we'll change the strategy, we'll change pricing. We'll launch a new product. We'll launch a new future, we'll increase FDIC coverage. We're just adapting and trying to find thatfast moving water.
Transcript:
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Don, welcome great to have you here and really excited to, for you to meet the team and share your story.
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Thanks John. Really appreciate that and it's it's wonderful to be here and great to meet all of you. John, you took the words out of my mouth. One of the kind of biggest learnings I've had since starting this company or since inception, since raising the first dollar of capital is it just really matters who you have around the table.
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There's lots and lots of. Investors out there. A lot of them claim to add value in different ways. But one of my early investors and and mentors James Courier from NFX who John also knows he told me something very insightful early on. When you bring new investors onto the cap table, it's really a life partnership and you need to get to know the individual more so than the fund itself.
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And so when I'm considering taking on new allocations to the company to invest in arc, I need to think to myself, who do I want to be working alongside for the next 3, 5, 10 years? Who do you want to be, standing next to as you're ringing the, the opening bell at nasdaq one day.
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And and for me, that's John and in the next play platform. So it's it's wonderful to be here. It's great to meet all of you and excited to have this this conversation. I'm happy to, I'm happy to take this in any direction that's most useful, I can kick off with quick, the founding story. I'm happy to just jump straight into Q&A or discussion, but let me know let me know what's most helpful. We also prepared a few slides, the extent it's useful to, to give a quick overview of the company.
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Before founding arc I worked in I studied finance and then worked in finance in New York in late stage private equity, which is a type of investing or you're buying businesses, taking them private, typically publicly traded companies, taking them private raising a bunch of debt and then selling them five years later for, ideally for more than you paid in terms of equity.
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That background was good training for me to ultimately start arc. I will forget into in a moment here. But it's really around providing better access to capital marcets, both debt and equity to an underserved population of businesses, which are early stage tech companies that really have limited access to the capital marcets.
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And so arc's mission is to fix that.
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What we're building is the number one digital bank in the US with both cash management which is that middle column here on the right hand side. So banking and and embedded financing. So access to capital, and that's venture debt, revenue-based financing, and then capital call business, which we're working on.
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And then finally the third pillar is really the software play. So building out payments insights billing for the companies that we're serving. arc is a software application that provides a full service full service banking. Funding and spending for our software customers. So my customers are other startups in Silicon Valley today and over time and most recently with the collapse of SVB and as of today, FRB we are moving aggressively up marcet and serving larger and larger companies.
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And 10 years out we want to be serving. The publicly traded tech companies that are driving the global economy. And so we're starting small think seed through series B, B2B SaaS businesses, providing them with banking and lending. And then over time, as we grow, as we raise more capital, as we provide a more sophisticated brokerage product we'll move up marcet and serve larger businesses and build more meaningful relationships with larger tech companies.
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This is an overview of the company. Just a really brief snapshot. As I mentioned, we're headquartered in San Francisco. We have thousands of companies signed up on the platform. We're doing hundreds of millions of gross transaction volume annually, and we're growing really fast. We have This slide is now dated.
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We're approaching, I think 50 50 employees by the end of this quarter. So we're hiring really quickly as well, and we're back by some of the best investors in the marcet. NFX is the James Courier story I mentioned. He is the founder of NFX. Left Lane led our our series A financing round.
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BCV was in the seed round and most recently next play joined. Alongside Left Lane in our series A round. So we've raised a total of 180 million of financing between equity and debt, which we use to, to to lend to other companies in our in our network. This is the disruptive part of the vision.
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So when you think about a traditional bank What does a bank do? Everyone here has a bank on the consumer side. It's called retail banking. You have an app on your phone with JP Morgan Chase or Bank of America. You use your bank to primarily. Store cash, right? It's a safe place for you to parc your cash.
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Hopefully you're getting paid some type of return on that cash. If you're banking with a large national bank, you're likely earning very little on your checking and savings account. And then at some point you might go to your bank and ask for a loan, maybe a mortgage maybe if you're starting a small business, a business line of credit.
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But the core function of a bank is cash management. They're storing cash and lending. We call that banking and capital. Those are the top row in the bottom row here in this graph. The middle section is software, and that's the disruptive nature of our business.
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What we're doing is taking a traditional banking model. And we're rebuilding it. We're reimagining it from the ground up as a software business. So traditional banks have a very heavy P&L They have tens of thousands of employees. They have a relationship driven transactional processes that are slow and oftentimes onerous on the management teams that they're working with.
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At arc we're using modern software stack, so modern software tooling to build faster, better. Automated decisioning that requires fewer people to operate and is hyper scalable. So with one software application, you log into arc.com and within seconds you can move money around. You can diversify across multiple bank accounts.
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You can access high yield, low risk products. You can tap into your future revenue streams to access a line of credit. So what we're doing is re-imagining the business banking stack. From the ground up using software and part of this digital banking revolution has driven a lot of the deposit outflows from the traditional regional banks like SVB and FRB into the fintechs like Brex, arc and Mercury. Who are the top three digital banking players in Silicon Valley today.
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So we'll be really brief here. I just don't wanna save time to, to open up to discussion, but. Our our differentiated value prop really came into the limelight in March when SVB first started to, to teeter on a collpase, it was a Wednesday evening, SVB share price traded down 20% plus in the aftermarcets.
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And I texted my, what a member of my revenue team, and I said, “Hey, are you following this story with svb?” And we pulled up the financials, we looked at the disclosures from their quarterly earnings. And and we saw that SVB had real problem. And we anticipated that there would be an enormous amount of outflows from their bank deposits.
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The following week, we could not have expected that SV V would ultimately crumble. But what we saw was that they were in real trouble. And we expected there to be a lot of companies that would move out of svb. For those who don't know, Silicon Valley Bank was the largest bank provider for Silicon Valley.
They had 70% marcet share, all venture backed businesses. They were the offline incumbent that we were disrupting, that I started arc to. Disrupt to displace. And I could have never anticipated it would happen just a couple years after starting the business. But what we experienced over the course of that two weeks was a step function change in arcs and arcs trajectory basically overnight.
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SVB crumbled all of their companies fled and arc stood there as a beacon, a safe harbor for to, for companies to, within 10 minutes open an F D I C insured bank account and rapidly diversify their assets across arc's partner banks, arc's, network of banks help. So we were in a position, and I'll get into what this page means, we're in a position to help.
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Hundreds of Silicon Valley startups protect their assets and escape escape the collapse of S U V. Everything ended up working out. For the deposits svb, the FDIC stepped in and increased F D I C limits. Everyone's cash was ultimately protected. But over that several day span there was panic in the marcet.
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And my team worked around the clock to really deliver value to our community. And that built a lot of goodwill that persists to this day that's really put arc on a new trajectory. And that was just a month ago. So on this page what these businesses cared about, Was protecting their cash.
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The issue with SVB is they had $250,000 of FDIC insurance, which is the standard across the US today. As a regional bank SVB was not sufficiently diversifying their cash across suite programs and off, off of their balance sheet. So ultimately what that meant is the lion share of their customer's deposits were uninsured on SVBs.
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Balance sheet. And so when the system started to show cracks all of those uninsured funds Lost a hun lost a hundred percent of their value. So they went into receivership. Yeah. And there was uncertainty around whether they would ever see those cash deposits again. And that's what drove a lot of the panic and ultimately systemic risk of contagion in the regional banking system that persists to present day as we're seeing now with with First Republic Bank on the bottom of this page because arc is not a bank itself.
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Arc is a tech company, we're actually able to partner with the largest financial institutions in the world, including Goldman Sachs, bank of New York, Mellon, Vanguard, and ultimately diversify our customers funds to cover a hundred percent of deposits. So because arc is a tech company, it was actually an advantage for us when the regional banking system crumbled because we could take deposits and diversify them across the safest financial institutions.
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And the globe and cover through Evolve Bank $250k in FDIC Coverage; BNY Mellon, another $2.5 million of FDIC, Vanguard, another $500K of SIPC and the residual in t-bills backed by the US government, which is the safest asset in the world. We could effectively cover or ensure a hundred percent of our customers dispo deposits, which made us a really safe place to bank with all the uncertainty in the global banking ecosystem.
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This is our core team. I'll just cover this one. That's me at the top. The two guys on the bottom left Raven. He immigrated from Singapore to the us to go to Stanford undergrad where he studied computer science and then went, worked as an engineer at Facebook and Tesla before going back to Stanford Business School.
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Where he joined forces with myself and Nick. Nick is second from left. He worked in private equity in Newarc. At Credit Suis ironically before, before going to get his MBA at the gsb. And the two guys on the bottom they come from much larger companies where they built that zero to one and then one to a hundred playbook around both credit risk and revenue respectively.
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With that, I think that's probably the summary. Yeah. We can just exit here. Happy to jump into q and a or just have a discussion around anything that jumped off the page for you all.
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I wanted to know how long will this advantage last? Like, how much have you grown since these banks have been failing, and how long do you think that's gonna be an advantage for you?
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Yeah, great question. Impossible to tell. But my view is that this is a step function change in digital bank adoption. Prior to SVBs, Collapse. I'd been standing up on a soapbox preaching to the marcet about the advantages of working with a tech company like arc over a traditional bank like SVB.
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And no one cared, right? No one, they their VC gave them their 20 million series A. They parced it at S V B because that's what everyone else did, because that's where the their GP had the relationship and they never thought about it. And why would you, it's a bank. It's boring, right? All of a sudden in a matter of, I don't know, 48 hours, the entire target marcet educated itself on the startup banking ecosystem overnight.
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What I've been preaching for, like I started a Forbes column on startup banking. No one read it, right?
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No one cared. You could look at my early columns, like 500 views overnight. It became the number one talking point in mainstream media. CNN, CNBC, Wall Street Journal are talking about Silicon Valley.
Startup banking which is what we built our entire business around. And so my hope yeah, is that this persists the marcet at a minimum is now educated. They understand the value proposition of working with the technology business that can sub, that can efficiently diversify cash across multiple bank partners rather than parcing with a hundred percent concentration your cash deposits in one regional bank which poses counterparty risk.
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And so at a minimum, the marcet's educated. Arc’s brand is the smallest of the three competitors I mentioned. Brex is a 12 plus billion dollar company. Mercury is a $2 billion company. And so for us we have we're now being discussed in the same breath as companies that are literally a hundred times larger than us.
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No one seems to appreciate that fact.
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So we're at dinners last night. We host, we regularly host programming. We're at I'll be brief here. We hosted a dinner last night for for Y Combinator. We partnered with two, much larger unicorn FinTech YC alum, and half the batch. Half of YC is banking with arc, a Brex 12 billion whale used to dominate that marcet.
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And now here we are here we are winning share handover fast. And so the collapse was transformative for the business. It was certainly right place, right time. What I'll say is there was a lot of hard work from a really great team here at arc that went into that moment.
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And and we're doing our best to capitalize on that growth. So what are the major headwinds do you see facing you as you move forward? I saw that a lot of companies were. Transitioning more so to the JP Morgans and Goldman Sachs, things like that. So is it that, or is it because you're functioning as a bank, but you're technically a tech company?
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Do you see government regulations somehow filter into the space in the coming years? I'm smiling cuz you hit the nail on the head on, on both. Those are the exact two points I was going to mention. Too big to fail banks, the government. JP Morgan Chase is a go, is a government subsidized monopoly, right?
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J Jamie Diamond is sitting on top of a 400 billion business that is backstop by the US government. JP Morgan Chase doesn't need F D I C insurance because the government, US government will never let them fail. And so inherently, JP p m is the safest place in the world to parc your cash other than T-bills.
And We have tbi, right? And so what we're doing to take share from JPM is parcing our JPM'S customers deposits in a three month T-Bill, which by the way is, for those who don't know a treasury bill is effectively a loan to the US government.
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I won't go down the political route, but what I'll say is the T-Bills is the safest asset in the world, the only safer asset than putting a dollar with JPM. And and it happens to be yielding over 5% of interest income and so of what we call a p y or annual percentage yield.
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And so for the for the first time we can actually win share from. Even the safest bank in the world that's backstop by the US government, by parcing our customers cash directly in our software application. Within 10 minutes, we can invest customers cash in t-bills that yield over 5% while JP Morgan is paying out 0.02% return on their tracking account.
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So that's one way to get ahead of that. But it's a really good point. We have something up our sleeve. I won't. I won't let the cat outta the bag right now, but I'm working on getting one of those brands here at arc, working with one of those banks that has that same level of trust.
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So that's 0.1. And then, yeah, regulation man it's it's something that's outta my control, unfortunately. But what I do is scenario planning. So what is the worst case outcome you get? You get some overzealous politician who wants, who doesn't understand. The tech world who sees SVB collapse and wants to come in and just regulate the shit out of it.
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It's at that point where where we have to just, dodge and weave and figure out how to get around onerous regulation. I could see JPM, Bank of America, Wells Fargo Law being Washington, trying to stomp out competition from upstarts like Arc, who are. Who are taking share handover fist.
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My company's growing a hundred percent month over month. JPMs growing, 5% a year. So inherently Jamie sees the writing on the wall. You read his 10k. FinTech is the number one threat to his business. I guarantee he's pouring tens of millions of dollars into Washington trying to prevent us from from taking that share.
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So it's probably the top existential threat to the business today. But. If if history is any indication, we'll find a way to, to make it work and to win. There's the political attack surface, but then there's the sort of the security and technical programming attack surface.
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Could you talk a little bit about that?
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Yeah you mean the actual security of the product. Absolutely. You're connecting banks, you're using APIs to transfer data. How are you managing that? Yeah. And how are you protecting people's information and money transfer?
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That's another really excellent question. That's the number one that's arguably the number one risk to to a digital bank, right? That, that there is some fraud. Money laundering or just system failure that results in the loss of customer deposits, right? That would be catastrophic to our brand.
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That could put us out of business overnight. Don't worry, John, that's not gonna happen. We invest very heavily in platform security. We have built. A world class credit and risk and compliance team in-house. That's very rare for a company of our stage. But we take security risk fraud very seriously.
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Our approval rate on account activations is in the single digits today. And that means that, We get a lot of fraudulent companies who are trying to sign up. They say, “Hey, it's a digital bank. It'll be easy to get an account and we can, launder money for for whatever they're doing.”
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We sniff that out. We use machine learning technology. AI and a manual process with a actual in-person risk team to sniff out any fraud or a m l and prevent those accounts from actually signing up on the platform. And then in terms of the actual tech, the system security we partnered with Stripe, which is was a hundred billion now a, 50 whatever, 60 billion business.
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But one of the most reputable, safest FinTech companies in the world. They take. A significant amount of economics for that relationship, but we think it's worth it because our platform is much safer than it otherwise would be if we were doing all, we're trying to build all that infrastructure and that security in-house.
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And does that answer your question?
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Yeah, it does.
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Do you use zero knowledge proofs at all to verify data?
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Not today but we are building out our our security engineering team. We just made our first full-time hire, so a lot of the functionality that Stripe offers, we're now starting to build redundancies in-house.
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And I'm really excited about the pipeline there. It's being prioritized. Internally and we're really beefing up our systems and security practices. I've got like a million questions for you, but I take the time, but I dunno if maybe feel free to, yeah, feel free to ping me.
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Really appreciate all the info man and unbelievable sharing. Thank you. The article with Forbes the other day about, the Apple and Goldman Sachs deal that might be coming through and, being able to have just a regular, savings account that's bearing 4% interest.
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And so when you talk about windfalls like. When Apple comes into that space, obviously they're not exactly in that space yet, but you can imagine they're probably scaling up to compete against you. Like how do you get ready for a behemoth like that coming into the space with their amount of market share that they could come get because of their immense amount of revenue?
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Yeah. It's a great, it's a really great question. I couldn't be, I, and I get the question Frequently from investors from customers and others in the ecosystem. The, I couldn't be more excited that Apple entered the FinTech world entered banking. Apple first of all I have an infinite amount of respect for Apple, what they've built, it is a cash flow machine.
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They have the best brand in the marcet. Steve Jobs is a, a role model of mine. He's a acentric character but the business he built is really second to none. What I'll say is Apple focuses on consumer, right? And so I don't see them Never say never, right?
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I'll never underestimate a company like Apple or Amazon, but what I'll say is, Apple today and historically has focused on consumer. They have a very small what we call b2b or business to business segment. And so they're entirely b2c and so that banking product is focused is meant to be sold to you and me.
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Arc and I didn't mention this in the beginning, but arc sells exclusively to other companies and exclusively to software businesses in Silicon Valley. Today. Over time we'll expand and sell to different, verticals and different types of companies, and maybe one day we'll enter the consumer marcet.
The reality is consumer is hyper-competitive. And you need to sell a lot of accounts to really move the needle on revenue. My business is focused entirely on businesses we focus here in, in Silicon Valley, where we have a right to win. And we know the founders, we know the VCs, we know the distribution channels.
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So what's the net impact? Apple entering the market just really validates the thesis. Apple is saying, Hey, we can do a better job for consumers than JP Morgan Chase or Goldman Sachs can on their own. Now I can take that same that same truth and apply it to the business world and say, Hey, consumers are using Apple to access Goldman Sachs in a similar manner.
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You should use arc to tap into GS and JPM in bank New York Mellon. So for us, having a company like Apple. Protecting our interests, protecting fintech's, interests in Washington head-to-head with Jamie Diamond. That's a lot of firepower that's on the right side of the net. The same side of the net as arc.
No, that's great to hear the validity in the technology and the process, man. I appreciate it, brother.
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Yeah, of course. Thank you, Joe.
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First of all, thank you for doing this. It's really cool to hear your story. And just your enthusiasm about this industry and as some of the leaders know here, I was a little hesitant coming into this group because I was like baseball player who's ready to find.
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My next career. And so I just was like, I don't know, I wanna make sure that I'm the right kind of person and have the right kind of perspective coming into this. So that's where my question's coming from. So it's two parts. One is, you mentioned that you guys are growing in this kind of exploding opportunity that's happening right in front of you.
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I was wondering how you guys know. That you are truly like taking advantage of this opportunity right now. What's the feedback that you look for that gives you that confidence that we're doing the right things, we're going in the right direction, and we're not letting you know a bunch of money fly out of the back of the truck as we're going.
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And it's I can imagine it's hard to notice with all of that going, all this craziness going on. And then the second thing is, What do you, what do companies like you look for in terms of, Hey, we're expanding, we're growing, we're hiring, we want to bring somebody in. Just to give me a sense of perspective growing up in the, in Silicon Valley and living here currently I've always been around it and so that that kind of perspective is what I'm trying to tap into to get out of these kinds of conversations.
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And look the short answer is you don't know, especially at a lean team, like I said, we're approaching 50. Headcount. I'm under-resourced. I have a, I have an extraordinary team. Like we, we've invested early and often in a players. I actually think I, not a lot of the folks on this call, but I come from I was big into sports growing up and I was captain of a state champ wrestling team in high school and I was always a competitor.
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And that's in my blood. And and what one of the early learnings is You gotta invest in a players, right? A players hire other A players, they mentor other A players and that's really how you compound a competitive advantage. And so early on, I just kept the bar really high. So the team is lean.
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It's a really good team and and we can do a lot with very few resources when it comes down to. And I'm laughing and Austin can definitely attest to this. Are we sufficiently capitalizing on the opportunity that's on our doorstep? That's one of the number one things that keeps me up at night.
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And for myself, and the reason I started the way I did this answer for myself, and I'm sure for many of the people on this call specifically you're never doing enough, right? The bar is always higher.
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Throughout, throughout this journey we've seen, we've enjoyed a fair degree of success and most recently in this court last, this last quarter in particular, but But you can never do enough.
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You're never good enough. And that's what fuels entrepreneurship in America. That's why you have so many great athletes in the us. That's why, where the US is constantly breaking all types of records. Just keep setting the bar higher for yourself. I think the what we try to do is just listen to our customers.
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We talk to our customers. We cut the data. So we have a really good fp and a team. We see where the customers are going. We talk to VCs and see how get unbiased feedback on how customers and prospects are responding to our brand. And and then we extract learnings and we change on a dime, right?
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So if we hear something is Is not resonating with our target customer profile. We'll change we'll change the strategy, we'll change pricing. We'll launch a new product. We'll launch a new future, we'll increase FDIC coverage. We're just adapting and trying to find that, that fast moving water.
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But look, the headline is you can never do enough. And I'd like to say that everything is data driven and and that the data gives us the answers, but the reality is particular stage, particularly the rate of growth that we're experiencing. You gotta trust your gut. And I think that for me over the last two years, developing just that gut instinct and trust and learning to trust it and not question it, even when people tell you it's not the right decision for the business.
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Ultimately you're the one running the business. You started the company you know best, and you have to trust that gut instinct and And make the call and then, only look back when your customers tell you to. And it's at that point that you can make a slight deviation in your plan and just keep pushing forward.
And so for me, look, we're never gonna be cap sufficiently capitalizing opportunity. I could be sitting here as a 10 billion publicly traded company, I'd tell you we're not doing enough. But. But we're doing our best and we're doing our best with what's available to us. And we could always do better and we always will try to.
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But right now it's just trust our gut instinct and talk to our customers.
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Just to reiterate it not even experience, we, I. We, we could hire all people that come from banks and finance backgrounds who, went to, to MIT or Harvard or whatever and and then worked at Goldman Sachs.
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And that's great. But we're not I'm typically not hiring those people. The people I look for are and my interviews are all the same. I'm the final round interview for every person we've hired and it's behavioral and it's, are you an athlete? Not an actual athlete in the sense of the world.
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That's great. And we have, Olympic growers on the team and whatnot. But it's, are you an athlete? Can I drop you in to a nebulous situation where you know nothing about the problem, the marcet, the competitors, the customers? Can I drop you into this problem and give you very little direction?
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You'll go figure it out. You'll break down walls and figure it out. That entrepreneurial attitude, that hustle, that's what I look for in every person on the team, across every function, from engineering to marceting to sales, to ops. That's the defining attribute across our business. It's just that level of autonomy and that, that go-getter breakdown wall attitude that sets us apart at the early stages.
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You've done a great job of presenting your company and you've done a really good job of showing how your platform is. I guess we can call it threat to some banks, but a benefit to other, and my question Is defi a legitimate threat to your business model in any way?
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And if you could talk about that, I think that'd be helpful.
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I try not to opine on areas where I lack a really strong point of view. Candidly I'm just not as educated as I should be or as I'd like to be on Defi. So what I'll say is I think any innovation in financial services is a tailwind for my business.
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Ultimately, we are like many of the defi startups, I have friends who are building these businesses. We're disrupting the status quo. We're taking something that's been around for. Hundreds of years and turning it upside down. I view that type of disruption, that type of change to be a good thing.
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That's how progress is made. That's how innovation happens. If I identify a technology that is a long-term competitive threat to my business, I'll find a way to incorporate it into my business and to use as an advantage. And I think part of the benefit of being being. Small, nimble is you can throw anything at us and we'll find a way to make it win.
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To win with it. And so if it's defi if it's something else if it's a regulatory change if it's a regional bank failure, if it's, JP Morgan Chase whatever it is the advantage of being an early stage growth company is. Is your early enough that you don't have you don't have what they call industrialist dilemma, which is large existing incumbent businesses.
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That you don't, that you don't wanna cannibalize. You look at jpm, the reason that we can disrupt JPM or svb is because they have all this legacy. Sorry, you have a key. It's because they have all this legacy infrastructure and revenue and they have these teams and PNLs that are set up. That are very profitable for their business.
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And so they don't want to go launch a digital banking competitor because it would cannibalize existing revenue streams. arc doesn't have that issue. We just wanna find the fast moving waters and whatever that is, defy. Otherwise, we'll figure that out. We'll incorporate in the business, we'll use it as a growth shoot.
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And it's the day that doesn't become true, right? We're, I'm worried about protecting what I've already built, insulating what I've already built. That's when I'm gonna be disrupted. That's when maybe the defi upstart can come in and start taking share from me and hopefully we never get to that point in in our, in in arc’s history.
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Thank you. You've been super, super generous with your time. I know we've gone over by 15 minutes here, I think the team really enjoyed it.
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I know I did. It's always great to, to hear you speak and hear about the excitement and the vision of what you're doing.